PressEthic

It's a horrible news.

I was once on the street where student demonstrators passed out photocopies of a young college student who had just burned herself to death. (I grew up in the tail end years of a right-wing authoritarian military dictatorship.)

She was a radical activist. The demonstrators were crying like hell as they handed out pamphlets. On top of genuine sorrow, the tear gas helped, I believe.

I buy they had a good intention. The dictatorship is sick.

But I was equally horrified by the dead woman and her fellow demonstrators. It was an exploitation of death.

Exploitation of death is the heart of cult of martyrdom.

Thus, I don't feel entirely comfortable with your points. Death becomes a propaganda in the vicar's case. The suicider benefits from the suicide. Media highlight is precisely what is intended, don't you think? It's a long comment, but I didn't know how to explain my point without telling it all.

coincidentally, I've been to that very monastery in Erfurt. In Germany the muslim population is largely Turkish, an enduring effect of Great War alliance. While the vicar's actions are not admirable, in my opinion, Europeans would be wise to take a very honest look at the Islamization of Europe. Its a sick irony that Europeans are being victimized by their ethos of tolerance and what could generally be called "liberalism". The pope should be able to say whatever he believes, Theo Van Gogh should still be living, etc. ad infinitum, unfortunately. None of what I am saying is new. But if this vicar's actions alarm some Europeans into a serious examination of Islamization, then perhaps it wasn't in vain.

What is Islamization?

What do you think? Am I a monster for using a clear word instead of a euphemism?

Sorry if that was sarcastic and unclear. It is my personal personal belief that Europe is being overrun with immigrants from North Arica and the Middle East who are negatively affecting European societies, in part by demanding that these societies adhere to Islamic laws restraining speech regarding the Prophet etc. If you want to argue about this, I'm game.

I should add that I have lived, for several months, with wonderful, peaceable Muslims from Egypt and Bahrain and they are still friends. My opinion has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with a hostile idealogy that becomes inflamed by a sense of alienation felt in Europe. Now I'm done, unless you want to debate.

What about the immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East who come to the U.S.? Do we face the same situation here? And does the dead vicar count among the victims of Islamization? He killed himself. Wouldn't he just be a victim of his own fear? I'd still like to hear a better definition of Islamization, because maybe I'm missing something. But the people I know who live in Europe and have the misfortune to have relatives/skin colors/last names from elsewhere don't have a chance to integrate into European "society." My close friend and former roomate Rachid was born and raised in Brussels, but because his parents are Moroccan he can't go to a job interview without being complimented on how excellent his French is, and how he must be different from the rest of "them." Worrying about Islamization of Europe is as bigoted as worrying about the Jewification of Congress or the anythingelsebesidesChristian-ification of anything. Furthermore, the vicar's protest can be compared to Muslim leaders in the Muslim world protesting the Westernization of their societies. Intolerance is everywhere and, the more you look at it, the more you'll discover that it's pretty similar in degree from one society to the next. It takes an enormous amount of hard work to overcome intolerance, personally and collectively. Fortunately, practicing tolerance doesn't involve setting oneself on fire.

I knew that someone would want to debate this inflammatory subject. I thought you might, Emily. I know you are a Middle Eastern scholar. So lets talk. I apologize if I offended anyone's sensibilities, or been hostile, but I feel that I can back up what I have said. I do not think Muslim immigrants face the same situation in America because America is a society built by immigrants and I think we integrate them better than traditionally homogenous European societies. I have never encountered Muslim rage in America. A large percentage of the people I know here who are of Arab descent and are practicing Muslims seem to be successful and content. But in the first few weeks I was in England, I was walking alone at night in Oxford was jumped by a group of Arab young men only because they heard my American accent. It was not too violent and actually another group of young Arabs intervened on my behalf, but I was woken up to Muslim rage in Europe. If you would like a definition of Islamization, how about this: the attempt to make traditionally non-Muslim societies adhere to Islamic law and traditions. Is that good enough? I thought it was a clear enough idea that it didn't require a definition. I don't know where all of you stand on this, but I was disgusted by the Danish cartoon fiasco. I think Danes should forever and always have the right to publish whatever they want, openly and without fear, in keeping with Western mores of free speech, which I personally hold sacred. So if you think I am a bigot for taking this position, I would like for you to describe what it is that makes me a bigot, because I think that is an unfair charge. I am no scholar or expert, but I have spent about 1 and 1/2 years of my life in various parts of Europe and I have some experience with Islam in Europe aside from what I have read in the papers. I simply do not think Europeans should be expected to change their long-established ways of life. Rather, I think those people who are new in their countries should be expected to change their ways of life, at least to a reasonable degree. I also don't think its fair for immigrants to be denied job opportunities. That statement is so obvious that I wouldn't feel compelled to make it if I wasn't being called a bigot. Integrating immigrants into European societies is a complex problem and I don't have the solution. However, I strongly believe that Europe should change none of her laws and traditions simply because some angry, discontent people demand it and threaten her with violence. I think it is unreasonable, and a slippery slope. Also - I didn't think I was praising the suicidal vicar, just talking about the issue Also, Emily, I am not a Christian, a Republican, or any other "evil" thing you might think I am simply because I'm from the South. That stereotype is as pernicious as any in my mind. I also have first hand, intimate experience with how the fundamentalist "Christian-ification" of America warps people's hearts and minds, and I am not a sympathizer. Don't rush to assumptions.

Tolerance is a grand idea Emily. One that Western societies seem to be better at than most in the world. Is that too much of a statement? Would you like to compare the tolerance level of America and Western Europe with that of China, Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. I know there are exceptions, but I don't know too many of them. I think the people that need to practice tolerance are those who killed Van Gogh. Last time I checked, Amsterdam was a pretty damn tolerant place, as long as we're talking about the natives.

I don't think tolerance is "pretty similar in degree from one society to the next" at all.

As much as I love Hani, my Egyptian ex-suitemate, he would never let me touch his Koran because I am an unclean infidel. Is that not at least somewhat offensive? I was just admiring its beautiful lettering. He also told me, quite sincerely and calmly, that the Jews intended to take over the world, as proved by the Protocols of Zion.

You know what, I truly apologize. I can be argumentative sometimes, but I don't want to be rude. There are many tolerant societies in the world, and many that are more tolerant than America. There are kind and compassionate Christians and Muslims all over the world. I didn't really mean to suggest that there weren't, but it could be read that way. My only objection to organized religion is when it becomes dogmatic and undermines logic and reason. I don't know how fully I stand behind the comment I originally wrote. I was just riffing. Muslim immigration is a delicate situation in Europe. I abhor any situation where a minority group is abused. Anywhere in the world, at any any time, this is despicable. But I must say I was distressed by certain things I witnessed in places like Marseille, Vienna, and London. In London, outside of Parliament, I saw a demonstration where people, mostly South Asian immigrants it seemed, held signs saying things like "The Death of Europe is coming" and "Europe you will pay for your sins with blood." I have to say, I sided with the natives at these times. There are grey areas, I feel sorry for immigrants who just want to work and live a peaceful, normal life but are confronted with racism. I think Europe is a pretty racist place, actually. Its just all a fucking mess, and I don't really know what to believe.

Todd, You've raised many issues and I can't address them all. But you seem to think that a bunch of guys jumping you upon hearing your American accent amounts to rage nurtured by an entire religion. I don't see the connection. Theo Van Gough should still be alive, and only a few extremists would say otherwise. Just as many others would, in other permutations of intolerance, wish other people from other religions or countries dead. You think Western society is tolerant, but your perspective is that of the comfortable majority. What about the continuing racism in America, preceded by 400 years of slavery and the massacres of Indians? What about the Holocaust, pogroms, the Inquisition, and the present day ubiquity of racism in southern Germany? What about the British and French colonialism? And did you know that, while there may still be a great number of Turks in Germany, the word "Turk" is actually used in parts of Europe as a blanket, derogatory term for immigrants of the Middle East? You can read about the scope of the word here, on Wikipedia, for lack of a better source. A nut who won't let you touch his Koran is the same as my best friend in middle school telling me I'm going to hell for not belonging to her church, is the same as a Hasid in Williamsburg who is friends with me but won't shake my hand when we meet because I'm dirty. And the Danish cartoons, while the violence they elicited was ridiculous, were themselves instances of outright anti-Semitism. By that I mean discrimination against Semites, whether they are Jewish or Arab. Imagine if someone drew a picture of a Jewish religious figure with horns on his head and tried to publish it in a European newspaper. In Germany, he'd be arrested! The question of hate speech is still being debated, in Europe and in America (and I believe the debate is significantly more nuanced in America, since in its most current form it combines legal and metaphysical questions to determine what speech constitutes harm instead of just what causes it--check this out for the briefest exerpt from a kind of discourse about hate speech) and the jury is out on whether all speech should or will be tolerated. In any case, if I were a Semite in Europe, I wouldn't wait for the final word on hate speech to come down, I'd protest. Just because I've said the West may not be as tolerant as we think doesn't mean I think the West is evil. I don't think any one place or society or religion is evil, I just think there are extremists everywhere. I've met them in all three monotheistic religions, and they are profoundly similar to each other. The evangelist from Al Azhar who sat me down during a family dinner and said (in Arabic, which made me quake in my boots) "So, Emily, tell me about Condoleezza Rice and this "New Middle East" America thinks it will create" sounded like he could have been a middle aged family man from the Bible Belt just as easily as he was a religious Muslim whose job it was to try to convert non-Muslims. Proselytizing is hardly evil, by the way, and is practiced, as far as I can tell, by conservatives or extremists in every religion. I strongly suggest you take another look at yourself and the society you seem to believe has no part in exacerbating the conflict between poor immigrants/Muslims/people of non-European origins and white Europeans in Europe. Your Islamization theory sounds like another version of the "Protocols."

Thanks for the well-thought-out reply. I respect your opinion as someone who has learned a great deal about the Middle East and spent time there. Its a little condescending to suggest I take another look at myself, as if I am a white-supremicist and don't realize it. I think it may be easier to make that assumption than to consider what I am saying. Making that assumption invalidates me immediately and thereby makes any point I may have null and void. I don't believe i ever said that my getting jumped resulted from "rage nurtured by an entire religion". I didn't say anything like that and I certainly didn't intend to. I think the rage of the guys that attacked me came from their hatred of America and what it is and was doing in the Middle East and their, common I believe, sense of alienation in Europe. Yes, this alienation is exacerbated by the much-discussed racism and elitism of Europe and Britain in this instance. No doubt. But I still bellieve that these downtrodden and unfortunate poor immigrants are making their lot worse by demonstrating in violent ways. Is any of what I am saying bigoted? I really don't know how. I am reacting to violence. I don't know how Europe's muslims could be better accommodated. They are moving to Europe in such large numbers that it would be hard to do, at least quickly. Yes racism is a problem, but Muslim immigrants do not help the situation by threatening the society with violence. Indeed, they make it much, much worse. And yes, I'm familiar with the derogatory term "Turk". THere's also "Paki", favored in Britain. I don't really see what that has to do with this argument. Here's another example of extremist Islam I witnessed in Britain: I worked, for several weeks, taking pictures at Madame Tussauds in London. I was positioned in front of the dais of world leaders. There was a podium in the middle that tourists could stand on and have their pictures taken. On either side were wax figures of Bush and Blair. Day in and day out, Arab men and women lined up to have their picture taken with their hands pointed like guns at the heads of Bush and Blair. I took their pictures and smilingly directed them to where they could pay an extortionist price to pick them up. I'm not arguing for deportation, government restrictions, or any sort of violation of religious freedoms. I am only asserting that their is a problem, a lack of successful integration, among a large percentage of Muslims who have emigrated to Europe. Solutions, I don't have. but I feel that I have witnessed a lot of genuine disquiet and it is not racist of me to talk about it. There is racism in every country in the world. I think there always will be. What makes a difference is how societies choose to deal with it. I don't think its productive to bring up the Indians or 400 years of slavery. Those were solidly bad things. I never voiced support of either of those eras of American history, and would not. About the Danish cartoons, did you think they were bad enough to merit that response? If so, which ones? From a Western perspective, I don't think they were. I realize Arab Muslims are not looking at it from a Western perspective. The thing is, Denmark is a Western country. You're right, I'm a member of the "comfortable majority". I'm a white male. But I will not readily accept that this condition invalidates my opinion on the subject of immigration in Europe. As a European descendant and a Europhile, it makes me more interested. Everyone has bias Emily. I'm sure you would agree. But I never intended to be malicious with mine. Moreover, I think we largely agree. Some of your arguments are against things I never said. I think white European society definitely has a part in exacerbating the conflict. i don't think I ever said otherwise.

Last thing. My position is this: Europe needs to undergo a process of self-examination, phasing out any instances of instituional racism and exclusivity and refraining from enacting any law that targets and violates a specific ethnic group. On top of this, Europe should maintain is standards of freedom of expression, and not succumb to intimidation. This is what I meant, and still mean, by "Europeans would be wise to take a very honest look at the Islamization of Europe." I mean they should look at the whole picture, not just the immigrants. I'm sorry if I was unclear. I think we agree more than you think we do, Emily.

I do not agree with you at all. I don't understand why people who hate Blair and Bush and make violent gestures at their wax effigies offer you an example of the threat of the Islamization of Europe. Your reaction, in that story, is a visceral one. What kinds of conversations did you have with the people you photographed? What did you find out about their beliefs, their politics, their life histories?

Alright then. You don't think you agree with me on anything, but I agree with you on several things you said, and I don't think I have said anything contrary to them. Yes, my reaction to people making violent gestures towards Blair and Bush was visceral. Am I not allowed to object to repeated gestures of assassination directed towards the leader of the country these people were inhabiting? Does this not evince some contrary feeling amongst large numbers of Arabs in London? I'm sure many of them were tourists, but probably not all of them. London has a huge Middle-Eastern population, as I'm sure you know. And no, I didn't get to know them. I'm sure their life experiences have made them hate Bush and Blair for a whole garden variety of reasons. But I don't think I need to know them to note that they were the only people making those gestures. I wonder if all would have been well if a bunch of Americans or Brits made assassination gestures to an effigy of Mubarak in Cairo. And I am not running around warning about the "threat of Islamization in Europe" like the sky is falling. It takes only a cursory glance at a newspaper to see that there has been strife in Europe with the Muslim population. I think it is only realistic to take notice of it. Indeed, impossible not to. Please note that "threat of Islamization" was your phrase. I'd like to understand how and why these things are happening, and that's what I want to talk about. My original comment was that Europeans would be wise to examine this honestly. I never said anything about erecting concentration camps. It was a poor word choice to say "overrun" with immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East. This is a delicate issue that should be spoken about delicately. There are massive numbers of immigrants from these places. That's what I meant.

I've obsessed over this argument today, and I think its over now. I think I over-reacted in the first place and went on the defensive. When you asked "What is Islamization", I took it to be a rhetorical question by which you were implying that I didn't know what I was talking about. I expected some argument when I first wrote the comment, and so I was a priori defensive. I do apologize. Everything you said was sensible and I hope to say on civil terms with you.